BrowseHappy Logo Shows Up for IE7

Replying to Speedboxer:

In the Administration Panel, the "BrowseHappy?" image shows at the bottom of the page when using IE7. The Patch Attached uses the conditional comment <!--[if !IE 7]> to stop the image from being displayed to IE7.

Uploaded new patch that uses <!--[if lt IE 7]> instead. More future proof. (thanks, rob1n, didn't think about future proofing it :P )

I could've sworn we got rid of browsehappy long ago, but I suppose not. However, isn't the whole point of BrowseHappy? to advocate any browser except IE? IE7 is IE still.

Replying to masquerade:

I could've sworn we got rid of browsehappy long ago, but I suppose not. However, isn't the whole point of BrowseHappy? to advocate any browser except IE? IE7 is IE still.

IE7 is a great improvement over previous IE versions. None of what's mentioned on the BrowseHappy? site really applies to IE7. Plus, I'm getting really annoyed by the image. Since I am browsing happy with IE, and I always have been. If there was any browser that it should show up in, it should be Firefox, which makes my browsing unhappy. :P

Replying to masquerade:

I could've sworn we got rid of browsehappy long ago, but I suppose not. However, isn't the whole point of BrowseHappy? to advocate any browser except IE? IE7 is IE still.

That was more for IE 6 which was a piece of crap, browsing-, standards- and security-wise. IE 7, while still not my personal choice for one of the best browsers out there, is much more secure and has much better standards compliance.

It doesn't really make sense to show the Browse Happy image for IE 7 -- that's already leaps and bounds from IE 6. IE 6 is the main problem.

Replying to rob1n:

Replying to masquerade:

I could've sworn we got rid of browsehappy long ago, but I suppose not. However, isn't the whole point of BrowseHappy? to advocate any browser except IE? IE7 is IE still.

That was more for IE 6 which was a piece of crap, browsing-, standards- and security-wise. IE 7, while still not my personal choice for one of the best browsers out there, is much more secure and has much better standards compliance. It doesn't really make sense to show the Browse Happy image for IE 7 -- that's already leaps and bounds from IE 6. IE 6 is the main problem.

IE7 is my personal choice for one of the best browsers. It may not have good JS error reporting, but at least it renders quickly. :P

I guess there's no chance of this getting into 2.2, is there?

No, probably not. But it can't bug you *that* much... it's on the bottom, after all :).

And if you want, you can apply your own patch to your 2.2 copy. It should apply.

What about it getting into 2.2.1? :P

Probably not. If you can help me win Matt over, then you're golden :).

Replying to rob1n:

Probably not. If you can help me win Matt over, then you're golden :).

I'll email him later, when it's not 1AM. :P

We should really just remove this. It's as bad as having "website best viewed in ...."

True, but Browse Happy *is* run by WP, so apparently we need to have this. I'm open to removing it altogether, though.

Remove "browse happy" logo

For good design principles, we should remove it.

If you can convince Matt, then I'll be happy to remove it, or at least change it to < IE 7.

The BrowseHappy? site is outdated. Look at the quote that makes reference to MS having stopped IE development.

It doesn't accurately reflect the current browser landscape.

I say we axe it.

I agree.

Replying to rob1n:

That was more for IE 6 which was a piece of crap, browsing-, standards- and security-wise. IE 7, while still not my personal choice for one of the best browsers out there, is much more secure and has much better standards compliance. It doesn't really make sense to show the Browse Happy image for IE 7 -- that's already leaps and bounds from IE 6. IE 6 is the main problem.

do you really think IE7 is much standards compliant and secure? Probably you didn't see these:

http://secunia.com/product/12366/?task=statistics http://secunia.com/blog/2/ http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support-summary

for me ie7 will be considered unsecure as IE6 in few months and it's not so much more standards compliant than 6.0 yes it's a lot better, but hey, it's easy to be better than the worst browser :)

+1 for axing it altogether unless there are plans to update browsehappy.com. I think Browse Happy has had its time.

Replying to johnbillion:

+1 for axing it altogether unless there are plans to update browsehappy.com. I think Browse Happy has had its time.

Agreed. "Switching campains" had a time, and now that time's over. Most people are educated on the fact that there are different browsers than IE (saying that they're better is personal opinion, and should never had been used in these campains) and have either decided to stick with IE, or use another Browser.

If you want to "advertise" this on your sites, you can, just don't put it in our Admin panels.

Replying to Speedboxer:

Replying to johnbillion:

+1 for axing it altogether unless there are plans to update browsehappy.com. I think Browse Happy has had its time.

Agreed. "Switching campains" had a time, and now that time's over. Most people are educated on the fact that there are different browsers than IE (saying that they're better is personal opinion, and should never had been used in these campains) and have either decided to stick with IE, or use another Browser. If you want to "advertise" this on your sites, you can, just don't put it in our Admin panels.

"campaigns", sorry.

Axe Browse Happy from WordPress

Patch "4254-axe-browsehappy.diff" completely removes the code for the Browse Happy logo out of wp-admin/includes/template.php off of trunk with Revision 5739.

(In [5742]) BrowseHappy? is outdated. fixes #4254

Props to Speedboxer (sorry, forgot it for the commit message!)

Thanks for committing that. The image (wp-admin/images/browse-happy.gif) will need to be delete, too.

(In [5744]) Matt requested that I revert this ([5742]). see #4254 for discussion

Dense as I am, I didn't realize that this was Matt's domain. Matt e-mailed me and asked if I could revert the change. I have, out of a desire to "un-draw" the unintentional line in the sand. I wouldn't have committed it had I figured out it was his domain before.

But still, the criticisms remain. The site speaks of a browser landscape several years old in which Internet Explorer is a dead-end product. It's also a bit insulting to the user to constantly be throwing that at them. How does this improve WordPress and the WordPress experience? It's inconceivable that IE's market share is going to precipitously drop anytime soon, and even with 5% market share we'd have to accommodate its users. It's advocating a change that (even in its most optimistic outcome) really wouldn't change WordPress or how WordPress development proceeds.

Replying to markjaquith:

Dense as I am, I didn't realize that this was Matt's domain. Matt e-mailed me and asked if I could revert the change. I have, out of a desire to "un-draw" the unintentional line in the sand. I wouldn't have committed it had I figured out it was his domain before.

Damn. :P

But seriously, Matt Mullenweg needs to realize that there was a time and a place for these sort of (intrusive) campaigns. That time is not now (way past it), and that place is not WordPress (and never should have been). It's not like he's making any money off of the site. I consider the BrowseHappy? logo advertising, and advertising in Open Source software (or any software) is just wrong.

Matt Mullenweg, it's time for you to let go of BrowseHappy?, and let it be taken out of WordPress.

I appreciate your enthusiasm on the issue, but I think there's never a wrong time to do what's right, and I think promoting the Browsehappy message is the right thing to do. (Though I do agree the site could use an update, which I'll take a look at.) WordPress is not meant to be neutral software, or when we started our themes would have used tables instead of CSS.

You know, I opened up my wp-svn folder today and saw Mark's commit message, and thought "sweet, it FINALLY got through." Then I went two commit messages later, and I found that he had reverted it per Matt's request. Now, Matt has closed this ticket as wontfix, despite the fact that Browse Happy's website is outdated, and the majority of community responses have been in favor of axing the Browse Happy, well, advertisement that is currently in WordPress.

Let's start out with the argument that "WordPress is not meant to be neutral software, or when we started our themes [we] would have used tables instead of CSS." This is complete BS. Using CSS instead of tables is not being non-neutral. It's merely respecting standards and not using tables for what their semantic uses are. It doesn't advertise a website that is outdated and supports a campaign that is largely successful, and dying down -- I for one have been very surprised and pleased by the amount of people that are aware of and use Firefox, especially in my educational environment.

I'm reopening this ticket because I believe that it should be up to the community, not a single voice in a crowd, whether or not this form of subliminal "advertising" should remain in the core, especially when the site is not current and not affiliated with WordPress apart from the fact that it shares one person and one company.

Sure, put it on WordPress.com -- that's not a community decision. But when people have voiced their opinions, and looking through the comments, it's almost exclusively for the removal of the Browse Happy logo, and just shutting this all down with one click and a paragraph, I won't stand for that.

@rob1n: Give that man a harrumph!

+1 from me. I never see the stupid thing anyways. *grin*

I do think that Microsoft has been showing itself (or at least the IE dev team) to be sympathetic to the need for standards-compliant rendering. While IE7 is not a perfect browser, it is a large step forward from IE6 and the rumblings about 8 that I have been hearing suggest that it will continue to improve in those respects.

The penetration of FF has gotten so deep that my blood relatives will self-chastize themselves each time they call me and ask web questions, e.g. "I know I'm supposed to be using Firefox, but my bank only allows IE and I...", etc.

1. While FF may have reached good penetration in our circles, it still has a far, far way to go.
2. Browse Happy was made by the Web Standards Project.
3. I appreciate your comments, but this isn't a place for voting.
4. There are infinitely more important things to spend time on.

Maybe when IE8 comes out? ;)

Unbelievable arrogance! It is very disheartening to see that user's opinion means nothing in here.

Matt, your attitude and unwillingness to listen to the community on this topic is disgusting. Of course there are more important things to spend time on at present, but your arrogance is not setting a good example to anyone.

All these statements from Matt Mullenweg might be our cue to leave WordPress and create our own Blogging Platform in which the Project Leader(s) will actually listen to the community...

I can understand Matt's emotional connection to the project that may bias him; you must have helped the project kick off; and as a member of the WaSP you may feel an obligation to support their projects, but you really need to listen to the community, especially on a strong topic like this one.

The WP community is very large, Trac is the voice of a hundred of so passionate contributors who represent a segment of that community. This ticket represents fewer than 10 unique voices. Again, I fully understand and have noted the issues here brought up by both casual contributors and serious ones. WP has never been driven by committee, or voting, and I personally think that approach tends to create bland, soulless software.

Speedboxer, I'm sorry there's something in WP that you disagree with, but it's not worth spending any more time on something this trivial. It's an issue where reasonable people can disagree (hopefully without personal attacks) and I don't think it's arrogant to make a decision so we can all move on to things that will have a real impact on people's experience. (And if you think a logo at the bottom of a page does, you've lost perspective.)

I'm ashamed of my previous comment here - I was in a very grumpy mood when I posted it. Sorry about that...

Replying to matt:

Speedboxer, I'm sorry there's something in WP that you disagree with, but it's not worth spending any more time on something this trivial. It's an issue where reasonable people can disagree (hopefully without personal attacks) and I don't think it's arrogant to make a decision so we can all move on to things that will have a real impact on people's experience. (And if you think a logo at the bottom of a page does, you've lost perspective.)

I never intended for this to become such a big deal. Also, I'm sorry if I said anything that you considered insulting (or the like).

I just hope that you'll think about removing the BrowseHappy? logo. No, it doesn't really matter to me all that much (although, it's a little annoying to have that at the bottom of the page), I can always remove it myself, or just ignore.

Anybody noticed that WP.org now contains a "Browse Happy" link in the footer?